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#1 05-01-2019 06:13:11

Markus
Veteran DAK Member
From: Australia
Registered: 24-10-2014
Posts: 911

French manufactured 2nd pattern tropical Heer shirt

Hi folks,

I bought this French manufactured 2nd pattern tropical Heer shirt a while ago but haven't posted it before.  Looks
to have been only lightly worn from examining in hand.

These types of shirts were widely used by German troops.

Anyway, here are the pics smile

Regards Markus

Front view
http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2587_dsc03145.jpg


Rear view
http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2587_dsc03152.jpg


Close up of collar, front buttons and pockets
http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2587_dsc03147.jpg


Single button to each arm cuff - note the fine poplin fabric as this is an important feature
http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2587_dsc03149.jpg


The buttons on the collar were often left undone - the exposed button holes on a shirt under a tunic quickly
help to identify this type of shirt

http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2587_dsc03151.jpg


The button to the rear of the collar
http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2587_dsc03153.jpg


1940 dated circular French manufacturers stamp - often found on the lower front of shirts (the one on this shirt is badly faded
so I've shown one from another shirt in my collection)

http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2587_dsc03154.jpg


A comparison shot of three French made tropical Heer shirts, which show contrasting fabric colours and other features.
The shirt at the front is the 1st pattern model, which had metal pebbled buttons on the pockets and shoulders plus fittings to mount shoulder straps.

http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2587_dsc03155.jpg


A close up of the front shirt - sorry don't know what happened to the colour!
http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2587_dsc03158.jpg


And some period photos of the French manufactured "button down collar" shirt in use...


Photo credit Afrikakorps - Self Portrait by Dal McGuirk, p. 154.
http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2587_dsc03137.jpg


Photo credit Rommel's Army in Africa by Dal McGuirk, p. 59.
http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2587_dsc03140.jpg


Photo credit Afrikakorps - Self Portrait by Dal McGuirk, p. 71.
http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2587_dsc03134.jpg


http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2587_french_shirt_1.jpg


http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2587_french_shirt_2.jpg


http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2587_french_shirt.jpg


A period photo which shows the French manufactured shirt on the left alongside with the standard German model on the right.  The main
differences are the button down collar of the French shirt and that it has three buttons to the front compared with the German one which has four.
Both of these shirts are the early models with provision for shoulder straps. 
(Photo credit Rommel's Army in Africa by Dal McGuirk, p. 139).

http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2587_dsc03143.jpg

Last edited by Markus (26-02-2019 23:15:23)

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#2 05-01-2019 07:54:42

Marseille42
DAK Member
Registered: 29-09-2018
Posts: 87

Re: French manufactured 2nd pattern tropical Heer shirt

Great post, where i can find a shirt like that ?

I have a question, the LW shirts most have a brust eagle, why the heer shirts doesnt have one ?

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#3 05-01-2019 15:39:21

RRA227
Supreme DAK Member
From: Hokendauqua.Pa. U.S.A.
Registered: 23-06-2011
Posts: 1689

Re: French manufactured 2nd pattern tropical Heer shirt

Nice shirt.  Rich A. in Pa.


1969 Shelby GT-500 King of the Road
Knowledge is power, guard it well.

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#4 06-01-2019 02:12:30

Markus
Veteran DAK Member
From: Australia
Registered: 24-10-2014
Posts: 911

Re: French manufactured 2nd pattern tropical Heer shirt

Thanks for the comments Max and Rich smile

Max, the French pattern Heer tropical shirts that I have seen for sale over the past twelve months have been through online dealers
Helmut Weitze and Virtual Grenadier.  You occasionally see them coming up with other online dealers.

I don't know which country you come from - maybe there are militaria fairs near you? 

IMO tropical shirts are getting harder to find - many shirts were continued to
be used in post war Europe and were worn out.  I've found the German manufactured tropical Heer shirt
particularly hard to find. 

I'd also suggest that if you're just starting out collecting it's really worthwhile to buy some reliable reference books -
some good ones are listed in this link:  http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/viewtopic.php?id=2719 

The first book by Kurtz I've personally found to be really helpful.  My motto is before you buy something, do as much research
as you can - use reference books and search the internet thoroughly.  If you get the chance, try to handle in person real examples,
so you know what features to look for.  Remember that in this hobby „Übung macht den Meister“ and no one wants to lose their hard
earned cash on reproductions priced as originals.

Unfortunately there are plenty of scammers out there and some dealers who simply don't have enough experience
with tropical uniforms and equipment.  If you're not sure it's easy to decide in haste and repent at your leisure.

As for the breast eagle, most Luftwaffe shirts had the triangular breast eagle added as the shirt was manufactured.  Heer (army)
shirts were manufactured without the breast eagle, but some individual soldiers added their own, normally the same EM variety found
on the tropical tunic.

In particular, be very wary of tropical Luftwaffe shirts - there are a lot of fakes out there.  Also some original shirts where the triangular
eagle has been resewn post war (for collectors this affects the value - even though both shirt and badge may be original).

Hope this helps,

Regards Markus.

Last edited by Markus (06-01-2019 02:36:01)

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#5 06-01-2019 06:36:46

msteve21
Veteran DAK Member
From: Australia
Registered: 05-12-2011
Posts: 751

Re: French manufactured 2nd pattern tropical Heer shirt

Wise words of wisdom Markus, agree 100%
I would also add, if in doubt or the price is too good a deal (a red flag IMO),  post your item up for a second opinion before committing to buy
Msteve


Collector of DAK & Panzer Militia
Great Southern Land

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#6 06-01-2019 13:49:47

Marseille42
DAK Member
Registered: 29-09-2018
Posts: 87

Re: French manufactured 2nd pattern tropical Heer shirt

hey,

i´m from germany and not new in collecting, i collect tank items and steelhelmets ... now im searching for afrika items wink i will start a other thread ..

i own already two books about afrika :

the Daniel Fischer book has nice pictures but not more, the robert kurtz book is great but not perfekt, most of the steelhelmets in this book are not good.

here are two pictures from my collection from heer shirts with breast eagle 

https://i.ibb.co/LJW9bqn/2019-01-06-13-35-29.jpg https://i.ibb.co/dgd8Pq4/2019-01-06-13-37-29.jpg https://i.ibb.co/VQwkqDW/2019-01-06-13-37-35.jpg https://i.ibb.co/tX6yphK/2019-01-06-13-37-53.jpg

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#7 06-01-2019 15:37:53

KeithTurner
DAK Member
From: Essex, UK
Registered: 26-07-2018
Posts: 65
Website

Re: French manufactured 2nd pattern tropical Heer shirt

Markus, an interesting thread and thank you for sharing the great images. Marseille42 a super image, thank you.

Enjoy the hobby, Keith


I collect to the Long Range Desert Group, Indian Long Range Squadron and Popski's Private Army. Not just medals but photographs, documents, uniform, specialist equipment, badges etc. Anything considered..Keith

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#8 06-01-2019 23:50:27

Markus
Veteran DAK Member
From: Australia
Registered: 24-10-2014
Posts: 911

Re: French manufactured 2nd pattern tropical Heer shirt

Thanks for the posts Max and Keith smile

Yes Max, unfortunately there are a few mistakes in most reference books.  The best way to validate something is to get your information
from multiple, independent and reliable sources.

Nice photos - it looks like the first studio photo shows a Kriegsmarine tropenhemd (pretty hard to find) and the last is a French
manufactured Heer shirt with shortened sleeves and breast eagle attached (likely to be a Südfront portrait).   

You've probably already noticed that it looks like there is something like a Jäger badge attached to the upper right sleeve
of the French pattern shirt - you can just see the edge of it.

You probably also already know that sometimes these studio photos were 'retouched' to emphasise features, especially Germany's
wartime national emblem (i.e. the breast eagle). 

Thanks again for the photos.

Regards Markus.

P.S. I forgot to add that msteve21 is right about things being significantly under priced and that can be a big sign of something not being right. 
In Australia we say that if a deal looks too good to be true then it probably is.
(I don't know if that translates well...)

Last edited by Markus (07-01-2019 07:05:57)

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#9 01-02-2019 18:50:08

zip3120
Friend Of DAK Forum
Registered: 23-09-2015
Posts: 406

Re: French manufactured 2nd pattern tropical Heer shirt

Hi guys
very nice and usefull this thread.
I just want to add more information and ask a question.

- We know that the widespread shirt in the French army in 1940 was the mod.35 (the one above well represented by Marcus)

We can find this model in different color: Blue for the alpine troops and from tan yellow to green passing through all the brown and khaki shades, according to the manufacturer, for the rest of the army.
Obviously the second ones are those used in Africa by the Germans.
summing up mod.35 features:

   two front pockets,
   a v shaped collar on the back with three buttons,
   a cuff very squared with only one button,
   a back made in two parts horizontally stitched, 
   a squared fabric sewn below the frontal buttons able to receive the regiment number.

NB: play attention: - there are civil models similar to the mod.35. We can distinguish them from the tissue, which is a brushed cotton, much warmer.
                             - mod.41 is very similar to the mod.35, the only difference between the two is the presence of the shoulder straps! (M41 was not used in Africa by Germans)

https://i.postimg.cc/sfGPKFSL/cam.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/8cg7tYg8/cam1.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/T104CZ5h/cam2.jpg

here are some pics of my 1940 French campaign mannequin.

http://i68.tinypic.com/rvbq03.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/33lf7gj.jpg

http://i67.tinypic.com/t7g115.jpg


- There was an officer model (mod.38), made in a better quality, with not v shaped collar, without pockets, collar buttons and the squared fabric sewn below the frontal buttons. However many variations existed.

https://i.postimg.cc/sxzH4nM1/cam.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/DwRgcCDF/cam2.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/sf84zHjW/cam3.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/pLkBwWpW/cam4.jpg

- There was a mod.35 for native troops, made with short cuffs and without pockets and collar .

http://i67.tinypic.com/2diq00h.jpg

here are some pics of my Maroccan mannequin in the Italian campaign.

https://i.postimg.cc/RFhD0PWH/20190201-183023.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/ZR9zQYF2/20190201-183035.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/MTfgDPz8/20190201-184049.jpg


At the end my question is: do you know if the Germans wore in Africa also French officer model or m35 for native troops? Are there any photographic evidence of this?

Ciao
Marco

Last edited by zip3120 (01-02-2019 19:03:03)

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#10 02-02-2019 00:36:46

msteve21
Veteran DAK Member
From: Australia
Registered: 05-12-2011
Posts: 751

Re: French manufactured 2nd pattern tropical Heer shirt

Great information Marco
Re your question, logic would say the answer is yes, finding photos to back that up is the difficult part
MSteve


Collector of DAK & Panzer Militia
Great Southern Land

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#11 02-02-2019 00:49:45

zip3120
Friend Of DAK Forum
Registered: 23-09-2015
Posts: 406

Re: French manufactured 2nd pattern tropical Heer shirt

Many thanks Steve

I am not so sure for the M35 for native.
I think that kind of shirts had been storen in warehouses located in the colonies, therefore they could have been used only if stored in France...
It would be interesting to have photographic evidence, maybe someone here in the forum has them?
Ciao

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#12 02-02-2019 01:58:13

Markus
Veteran DAK Member
From: Australia
Registered: 24-10-2014
Posts: 911

Re: French manufactured 2nd pattern tropical Heer shirt

Hi Marco,

I can't recall seeing photos of the collarless shirt being used by German troops - but you never know....

Also, not aware of the officer M38 shirt being used - would be difficult to pick this up under a tunic and would need some
clear period photos of the shirt fully exposed to pick up the features you've pointed out - especially no pockets and
the typical three button French shirt arrangement.

I think that I read somewhere that the French M41 shirt with shoulder straps was used by Vichy French forces - however you
still see them being advertised with some dealers as being for DAK...

Thanks for posting the photo's - you have a fantastic collection cool

Also appreciate your contributions and adding to our discussions about these type of shirts. 

Regards Markus

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#13 02-02-2019 11:28:15

zip3120
Friend Of DAK Forum
Registered: 23-09-2015
Posts: 406

Re: French manufactured 2nd pattern tropical Heer shirt

Markus wrote:

Hi Marco,

I can't recall seeing photos of the collarless shirt being used by German troops - but you never know....

Also, not aware of the officer M38 shirt being used - would be difficult to pick this up under a tunic and would need some
clear period photos of the shirt fully exposed to pick up the features you've pointed out - especially no pockets and
the typical three button French shirt arrangement.

I think that I read somewhere that the French M41 shirt with shoulder straps was used by Vichy French forces - however you
still see them being advertised with some dealers as being for DAK...

Hi Marcus
I know it is very difficult to estabilish if this different kind of shirts had been wore by AK. Probably it will be more easy to find this in documents than in photos, but who knows? probably in the future we'll see in a photo an officer wearing a French shirt. It'll be important in our research to keep in mind the existence of these shirts!

Yes correct M41 was used by Vichy French forces. Since they were allies of Germany, they did not suffer the previous depredation.
So we have to be very carful when we are looking for a French shirts, only M35 is surely correct for AK!
We must be careful for the civil shirt too! A good criterion will be searching for military marking in it.

Thank you for my collection.
you can se a part of it, in its old configuration, here http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/viewtopic.php?id=1934

I spent this period away from the forum to better study the topics not considered here to improve my collection by purifying it from fakes.
I must say that now I am very happy with this fruitful and unfortunately expensive work.

Ciao
Marco

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#14 02-02-2019 13:44:31

Markus
Veteran DAK Member
From: Australia
Registered: 24-10-2014
Posts: 911

Re: French manufactured 2nd pattern tropical Heer shirt

Hi Marco,

You have raised some good points.  Yes, unfortunately this hobby is an expensive one, there is no doubt about that.  And like other things that
have high value (such as antiques) there are always going to be some people who are going to make reproductions and offer them up as originals
(with an original price) to try to make an easy buck. 

You need to have an eye for detail and get to learn from a number of sources the identifying features of original pieces, especially if you collect a range of
different militaria items.    This knowledge does not come quickly, easily or cheaply.   Everyone I'm sure has made a collecting mistake or two, especially
if you're lacking knowledge on a particular item and rely solely on the word of a seller.   Sometimes you can do okay, but who wants to risk investing
hundreds or even thousands of dollars on something that is a fake.

Thanks again for your contributions smile

Regards Markus

Last edited by Markus (02-02-2019 13:51:31)

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#15 03-02-2019 22:09:26

NZMark
Moderator
From: New Zealand
Registered: 08-04-2011
Posts: 1122

Re: French manufactured 2nd pattern tropical Heer shirt

Excellent thread and great photos of various shirts.
French shirts can be gained relatively cheaply (200 euros and up), for un-modified examples. As for German modified shirts, once you find one of those, you start paying better money. As always, the more faded, the better we like them (generally!).
As the Germans utilized many different French uniform items (as seen in period photos) these have increased in price as more collectors try to add them to their inventories.
Try to find a good m36 and m40 French sweater and you'll see exactly what I mean....
http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/3_fg20shirt20012.jpg
Thanks Markus and Zip - very nicely done smile
Mark
NZ


Student & Collector of WWII German Tropical Militaria

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#16 04-02-2019 00:43:51

Markus
Veteran DAK Member
From: Australia
Registered: 24-10-2014
Posts: 911

Re: French manufactured 2nd pattern tropical Heer shirt

Thanks Mark, yes the collared French sweater is pretty hard to find now but was also widely worn in North Africa.

I think the last one I saw for sale was some time ago by MarkG?  (I may be wrong, but I think that
was who was selling it  - can only recall clearly that they said they had two...)

Regards Markus

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#17 04-02-2019 01:59:49

NZMark
Moderator
From: New Zealand
Registered: 08-04-2011
Posts: 1122

Re: French manufactured 2nd pattern tropical Heer shirt

Yes, I saw that as well, but I wasn't going to pay that price. I got mine out of France, as with my m40 sweater (made under occupation in 1942).
http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/3_20170625_163059.jpg
http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/3_sweater20002.jpg
Mark
NZ


Student & Collector of WWII German Tropical Militaria

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#18 04-02-2019 02:26:49

Markus
Veteran DAK Member
From: Australia
Registered: 24-10-2014
Posts: 911

Re: French manufactured 2nd pattern tropical Heer shirt

Very nice Mark cool

Cheers Markus

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#19 03-03-2019 17:01:21

don_kihotis7
Moderator
From: Cyprus
Registered: 05-09-2013
Posts: 2578

Re: French manufactured 2nd pattern tropical Heer shirt

"A comparison shot of three French made tropical Heer shirts, which show contrasting fabric colours and other features.
The shirt at the front is the 1st pattern model, which had metal pebbled buttons on the pockets and shoulders plus fittings to mount shoulder straps."

Markus you mean the one with pebbled buttons was issued by French factories like this? Aren't those peebled buttons German made?


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#20 03-03-2019 23:39:19

Markus
Veteran DAK Member
From: Australia
Registered: 24-10-2014
Posts: 911

Re: French manufactured 2nd pattern tropical Heer shirt

Thanks Chris,

You're right, the pebbled buttons and shoulder strap attachments were modifications made by the Germans.

Regards Markus.

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