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#1 05-07-2016 11:21:24

zip3120
Friend Of DAK Forum
Registered: 23-09-2015
Posts: 359

DAK pith helmet

Hi mates
here are one of my german pith helmet
your opinions are welcome.
ciao
Marco


http://i68.tinypic.com/n38ao7.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/28mhfut.jpg

http://i67.tinypic.com/28spnqr.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/i5mz2q.jpg

http://i67.tinypic.com/21l7c52.jpg

http://i66.tinypic.com/iz8d8p.jpg

http://i67.tinypic.com/20jpdl2.jpg

http://i67.tinypic.com/tam0cp.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/313iu6p.jpg

http://i64.tinypic.com/2zprx8l.jpg

http://i67.tinypic.com/2moo3g1.jpg

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#2 05-07-2016 22:34:44

zip3120
Friend Of DAK Forum
Registered: 23-09-2015
Posts: 359

Re: DAK pith helmet

Ciao Dermot
why did you say this is a French made helmet?

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#3 06-07-2016 00:23:57

zip3120
Friend Of DAK Forum
Registered: 23-09-2015
Posts: 359

Re: DAK pith helmet

Hi Dermot
this helmet has the 6 standard panels, like the german made and not the 4 panels like the French made, furthermore the chinstrap is the german type.
The shape of this helmet is the german shape. French shape is different.

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#4 06-07-2016 10:53:33

zip3120
Friend Of DAK Forum
Registered: 23-09-2015
Posts: 359

Re: DAK pith helmet

Grazie Dermot for your useful information, I really didn't know the french version of german tropenhelm...
At first I thought you were referring to the original french army pith helmet. This is very very different.

This is my M 1931 french colonial troops helmet. note the chinstrap it is completely different from those posted in your link.

http://i67.tinypic.com/30kxgs2.jpg

http://i68.tinypic.com/2ngaauo.jpg

http://i65.tinypic.com/25gthmq.jpg

http://i65.tinypic.com/1pi1zm.jpg

http://i67.tinypic.com/27yooqa.jpg

http://i68.tinypic.com/29olnbp.jpg

Last edited by zip3120 (06-07-2016 11:00:51)

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#5 30-07-2016 09:11:59

The Magpie
Veteran DAK Member
Registered: 29-06-2011
Posts: 646

Re: DAK pith helmet

Hi Marco,

Bit late on this one. Agree French made helmet originally worn without any insignia. The shields have been placed on recently, as in postwar...really a couple very nice French helmets.

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#6 30-07-2016 12:34:55

zip3120
Friend Of DAK Forum
Registered: 23-09-2015
Posts: 359

Re: DAK pith helmet

thanks Tim
Ciao

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#7 30-07-2016 17:51:17

RRA227
Supreme DAK Member
From: Hokendauqua.Pa. U.S.A.
Registered: 23-06-2011
Posts: 1393

Re: DAK pith helmet

Nice helmet. Rich A. in Pa.


1969 Shelby GT-500 King of the Road
Knowledge is power, guard it well.

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#8 01-08-2016 22:54:04

zip3120
Friend Of DAK Forum
Registered: 23-09-2015
Posts: 359

Re: DAK pith helmet

Thanks my friends.
Please two questions for you.
Are you sure that the french made pith Helmet was originally worn without insignia?
What would be better to do with this helmet? Should I remove them?

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#9 02-08-2016 08:49:04

The Magpie
Veteran DAK Member
Registered: 29-06-2011
Posts: 646

Re: DAK pith helmet

Hi Marco

Well most of the French helmets used by the Germans both Herr & LW did not carry the insignia. On sunhelmets I have four criteria for the shields being attached originally from the war. First the holes for the prongs. these were pre-punched at the factory and tend to have a universal appearance from the awl used. Next how the prongs sit within the helmet, again from the factory they are with a single bend, really snug and tight to the helmet. Not the case with your example. Next is how the shields sit into the fabric of the helmet itself, again with he passing of time they should be sunken somewhat. Last is if there is a ghost underneath the shields ? (not much help on a mint condition helmet) Usually this can only be told with a hands on,,,,does yours have a ghost ?

Its near impossible to say with 100% certainty, especially from photos, a hands on always preferred.

Give them a good look Marco, then you can decide if its worth removing them or not ? What display is this helmet used for ? That could also have a bearing as to removing or leaving them on. Generally i like to leave things as i found them originally, but i also understand i am in the minority of collectors that feel this way...

For example, the tropical tunic with the painted peace signs, anti war slogans etc (recently posted on this Forum) are part of that jackets history now and i would make no effort to remove or cover them up, i actually like that kind of stuff.....

ciao
Tim

Last edited by The Magpie (02-08-2016 11:01:15)

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#10 02-08-2016 12:02:10

don_kihotis7
Moderator
From: Cyprus
Registered: 05-09-2013
Posts: 2500

Re: DAK pith helmet

Since the insignia are on, i would leave them. Better than seeing the holes there.


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#11 02-08-2016 14:44:56

zip3120
Friend Of DAK Forum
Registered: 23-09-2015
Posts: 359

Re: DAK pith helmet

Hi Tim
in my collection I have a main section that is my time machine, here I try to reconstruct the main WWII battle.
Then I have lower section where  I collect single topics.
That helmet is in my wwII pith helmet topic, allied and axis helmets.
We have already done the restoration discourse.      wink
I think that  the historical errrors need to be correct, as far as possible. ( like in the case of this helmet, if historically it is shown that these never had, in no way, insignia ).
The tropical tunic with peace sign however for me is another situation.
This is not an historical error but it is part of the history of this tunic. So I would not remove it too.

Ciao Chris
Yes there may be a chance to see the holes signs, but this has not happened in the southafrican helmet wit DAK insignia that I posted. Cork and canvas closed perfectly.
It is very important that there is no ghost underneath them and the holes are not too big.☺
Here is another time the big question:
Is it better to remove the error with the eventual sign of it ( the sign is part of its history ) or not?
Marco

Last edited by zip3120 (02-08-2016 18:51:17)

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#12 04-08-2016 13:08:55

zip3120
Friend Of DAK Forum
Registered: 23-09-2015
Posts: 359

Re: DAK pith helmet

Hi friends
No answers to my questions?

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#13 04-08-2016 19:48:52

don_kihotis7
Moderator
From: Cyprus
Registered: 05-09-2013
Posts: 2500

Re: DAK pith helmet

I am not sure if understood correctly what you mean.
If something is historically not correct it doesn't mean that it wasn't done like that during the war. The waffen ss nco in my avatar photo is wearing a Heer eagle instead of a SS one. This shows that mistakes were evident during the war as well not only from collectors messing with the items post war. When i bought my 1st LW tunic it had continental straps and the seller had bought it like that as well. I don't know who put them one so i left them there.

Last edited by don_kihotis7 (08-08-2016 12:15:45)


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#14 04-08-2016 23:44:40

zip3120
Friend Of DAK Forum
Registered: 23-09-2015
Posts: 359

Re: DAK pith helmet

Ciao Chris
That you said is extremely correct and it is another variable that we must evaluate.
The solution is to search the signs related to the correct dating of the questioned object and remove only that is clearly a recent modification.

Last edited by zip3120 (05-08-2016 00:00:39)

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#15 08-08-2016 12:15:24

don_kihotis7
Moderator
From: Cyprus
Registered: 05-09-2013
Posts: 2500

Re: DAK pith helmet

zip3120 wrote:

Ciao Chris
That you said is extremely correct and it is another variable that we must evaluate.
The solution is to search the signs related to the correct dating of the questioned object and remove only that is clearly a recent modification.

I agree, though not always possible to figure out.


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#16 10-08-2016 01:42:35

The Magpie
Veteran DAK Member
Registered: 29-06-2011
Posts: 646

Re: DAK pith helmet

zip3120 wrote:

Hi Tim
in my collection I have a main section that is my time machine, here I try to reconstruct the main WWII battle.
Then I have lower section where  I collect single topics.
That helmet is in my wwII pith helmet topic, allied and axis helmets.
We have already done the restoration discourse.      wink
I think that  the historical errrors need to be correct, as far as possible. ( like in the case of this helmet, if historically it is shown that these never had, in no way, insignia ).
The tropical tunic with peace sign however for me is another situation.
This is not an historical error but it is part of the history of this tunic. So I would not remove it too.

Ciao Chris
Yes there may be a chance to see the holes signs, but this has not happened in the southafrican helmet wit DAK insignia that I posted. Cork and canvas closed perfectly.
It is very important that there is no ghost underneath them and the holes are not too big.☺
Here is another time the big question:
Is it better to remove the error with the eventual sign of it ( the sign is part of its history ) or not?
Marco

Hi Marco & Chris

Good discussion, here's my take on it. Correcting obvious errors like removing fake insignia is most of the time ok unless by doing so the tunic/cap etc is further damaged/changed in appearance. & replacing the fake insignia with original is again most of the time a good idea as stated above.

A couple examples. A DAK tunic/cap used by painters back in the 50's still with spots of paint paint on it should not be cleaned up by removing the paint as it is part of the items history. A number of these "painter's jacket/caps" sit in old time collections. Same for a Biker/Peacenik/Surfer from California/Civilian modified jacket/cap/helmet, its part of the items post war history and should be left as its found.
An item should not be cleaned or post war altered from when it was found unless it is to prevent further damage. I love the salty 1st pattern jackets and M40 caps and tropenhelms still with the dirt/dust & grime intact, as i am sure most reading this do.  Adding an AKCT to a 1st pattern tunic that never had one before is not a good idea. Officer upgrades from an em tunic again not a good idea.

But correcting something that is not historical correct but possibly an original wartime modification is much more challenging. Ofen these are not mistakes but just exceptions do to shortage in supply most of the time. Tropical jackets with Continetal insignia for example especially 2nd & 3rd paterns were fairly common as tropical straps were scarce in Afrika/Italy from mid summer '42 till the end of the '43. German used Allied items another example, are very hard to authenticate without it just being an Allied jacket/cap/sunhelmet someone souped-up with German insignia post war. In general i would leave these items alone also.

"The solution is to search the signs related to the correct dating of the questioned object and remove only that is clearly a recent modification"

"I agree, though not always possible to figure out."


Agree also, in most cases it is better to leave the item as found and not alter/restore it unless its something simple like adding an eagle or slip on straps etc, even then i tend to leave the item exactly as i originally found it.

but thats just my opinion and would like to here everyone's thoughts on this ?



If i am ever in Italy would like to stop by and go back in time with you Marco, & of course visit Chris for his famous BBQ & some footy cool

Cheers
Tim

Last edited by The Magpie (10-08-2016 01:49:26)

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#17 10-08-2016 10:20:39

don_kihotis7
Moderator
From: Cyprus
Registered: 05-09-2013
Posts: 2500

Re: DAK pith helmet

Haha my famous BBQ. You are welcome anytime mate.

Here are some recent photos lol


http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2378_20160731_130108.jpg

http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2378_20160731_130128.jpg

http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2378_20160806_144822.jpg

http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2378_20160807_150536.jpg

http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2378_20160807_152120.jpg


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#18 11-08-2016 02:29:33

The Magpie
Veteran DAK Member
Registered: 29-06-2011
Posts: 646

Re: DAK pith helmet

Brilliant, can smell it from here and wise choice of a great beer too tongue

cheers !
Tim

Last edited by The Magpie (11-08-2016 02:30:15)

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#19 13-08-2016 20:35:41

don_kihotis7
Moderator
From: Cyprus
Registered: 05-09-2013
Posts: 2500

Re: DAK pith helmet

tongue heh
Erdinger is a nice Weiß beer however the glass is filled with another brand.
Just wanted to take a picture of the Euro 2016 limited edition glass.


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#20 16-08-2016 16:53:57

zip3120
Friend Of DAK Forum
Registered: 23-09-2015
Posts: 359

Re: DAK pith helmet

hi friends, sorry for my delay but I am on holidays now.
I like this discussion, it is very interesting and positive.
It is very very important how we approach to the historical object! Initially my idea was to try to take back the object to its original condition as much as possible, but only in those cases we do not compromise the integrity of the item.
However through discussions like this and evaluating historical photos I realized that sometimes there were wartime modification for material shortages or human errors... So this topic is very complicated!
here is an example:
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/ … p?t=871375

This is a first pattern of fliegerbluse, dated 1939, that has been found years ago in a Norwegian museum. It has a white piping along the collar white collar patches and golden yellow shoulder straps.
these were the correct rules for an HG reconnaissance man in Italy in 1943. However the patches are not standard made and the collar piping is very sloppy!
what we can do in this case? Is this an original HG bluse reworked at the time to meet later regulations with poor material due to the shortage in supply or is it a put together tunic with the poorest quality materials?
I have to leave it as found or I have to fix it back to its early configuration? it would be very easy to do it by removing the patches and collar piping and restoring the yellow flieger collar tabs.

Dear Tim and all of you my dear friends,
you are welcome in my home every time you are in Italy!
I will be very happy to drink a good beer with you and to show you my collection hoping of being able to see the your in the future
ciao
Marco

Last edited by zip3120 (16-08-2016 16:59:26)

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#21 16-08-2016 19:00:19

zip3120
Friend Of DAK Forum
Registered: 23-09-2015
Posts: 359

Re: DAK pith helmet

Thanks Dermot
your opinion is always significant for me. smile

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