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#1 16-04-2011 15:00:52

Bond
Veteran DAK Member
Registered: 13-04-2011
Posts: 788

Luftwaffe tropical tunics

Here is my sadly messed with Luftwaffe tropical tunic.  It has a copy eagle, no breast pocket flaps and a mixture of buttons, but hopefully one day I can restore it.  The officers shoulder boards were in the pocket when I got it but could have been added at any time.  I tried to research the name on the tag, but with no luck so far.  The rear flap has been sewn shut and a waist adjuster has been added, but when this was done is not known.

Hopefully, others will add their Luftwaffe tropical tunics to this thread.

Regards,

Jerry

http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/10_lufty_trop_tunic_small_montage.jpg


Regards,

Jerry B.

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#2 16-04-2011 17:56:36

Unfront
Confirmed DAK Member
From: West Coast of the US
Registered: 13-04-2011
Posts: 127
Website

Re: Luftwaffe tropical tunics

Here is a photo group of my Luftwaffe ropical tunic that was introduced in another thread:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_w1w5xExyXnU/R7kqBH_UhvI/AAAAAAAAAS4/MRVvit8800Y/s512/2.JPG

It is hard to tell from this photo, but the eagle is original to this tunic. I will take some more detailed shots of the interior when time permits.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_w1w5xExyXnU/R7kqBn_UhxI/AAAAAAAAATI/2G6LEKTCxUI/4.JPG

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_w1w5xExyXnU/R7kqBn_UhwI/AAAAAAAAATA/ibx_l5pPT0s/s512/3.JPG

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_w1w5xExyXnU/R7kqB3_UhzI/AAAAAAAAATY/95cbH3XQHrA/4b.JPG


_____
I collect Hermann Goring Panzerkorp and Luftwaffe Field Division items as well as tropical items from all branches of service.

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#3 16-04-2011 22:59:03

Bond
Veteran DAK Member
Registered: 13-04-2011
Posts: 788

Re: Luftwaffe tropical tunics

Looks good Erik, thanks for the extra pics.

Here are some more of my example.

Regards,

Jerry

http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/10_2lufty_trop_tunic_montage.jpg


Regards,

Jerry B.

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#4 16-04-2011 23:35:54

Sebastian.V
Administrator
From: Paris
Registered: 06-04-2011
Posts: 1932

Re: Luftwaffe tropical tunics

Great tunic.... I have a question please many tropical breast eagles are copy, why ? the "sand eagle" is extremely rare ?

thanks all
Sebastien

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#5 17-04-2011 00:41:36

Unfront
Confirmed DAK Member
From: West Coast of the US
Registered: 13-04-2011
Posts: 127
Website

Re: Luftwaffe tropical tunics

One theory for the reason that most tunics have replaced breast eagles is that many troops that served in Afrika had surrendered. In the POW Camps, they were ordered to remove all of their insignia.


_____
I collect Hermann Goring Panzerkorp and Luftwaffe Field Division items as well as tropical items from all branches of service.

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#6 17-04-2011 20:20:59

Unfront
Confirmed DAK Member
From: West Coast of the US
Registered: 13-04-2011
Posts: 127
Website

Re: Luftwaffe tropical tunics

Here are some additional shots of the interior of the tunic from post #2 above.

Reverse of the eagle:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_w1w5xExyXnU/TaswuQ-LgSI/AAAAAAAABY4/_gJFIE92zS8/s640/DSCN1913.JPG

Complete with S Hooks for all buttons:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_w1w5xExyXnU/TasxTXhQAuI/AAAAAAAABZA/eHtloTERnYY/s640/DSCN1916.JPG

Full shot of the interior:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_w1w5xExyXnU/Tasxj5m-PRI/AAAAAAAABZE/TKUkuF9yzPw/s640/DSCN1917.JPG

Neck closure:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_w1w5xExyXnU/TasxvS-TY9I/AAAAAAAABZI/zKUtUEh1kMw/s640/DSCN1920.JPG


_____
I collect Hermann Goring Panzerkorp and Luftwaffe Field Division items as well as tropical items from all branches of service.

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#7 18-04-2011 20:00:52

Unfront
Confirmed DAK Member
From: West Coast of the US
Registered: 13-04-2011
Posts: 127
Website

Re: Luftwaffe tropical tunics

Here is a private purchase Luftwaffe Officer's tropical tunic. This tunic appears as if it is a converted tropical KM tunic; however, upon closer inspection, it is not. This was tailored from the ground up. (A side by side comparison with a KM tunic makes for a "night and day" comparison). I have seen a few tunics like this for sale on various websites, in addition, Dal McGuirk's book, Rommel's Army in Africa has a photo of "an Italian officer serving in the German Army as a translator" wearing a tunic of this cut. I presume that this uniform was privately tailored in Italy.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_w1w5xExyXnU/SA_X-4c2tiI/AAAAAAAAAb4/Q8zQ4jWlJrA/s512/DSCN9195.JPG

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_w1w5xExyXnU/SA_X-Ic2tgI/AAAAAAAAAbo/EIWjpF4TXPc/s512/DSCN9193.JPG

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_w1w5xExyXnU/SA_X-4c2tjI/AAAAAAAAAcA/0wfqrcw72H0/s512/DSCN9196.JPG

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_w1w5xExyXnU/SBUp3oc2txI/AAAAAAAAAfY/e9yQ4LZHJko/s512/DSCN9220.JPG

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_w1w5xExyXnU/SBUp4oc2t1I/AAAAAAAAAgI/sNx_BxMQwrw/s512/DSCN9227.JPG

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_w1w5xExyXnU/SBUvvYc2t3I/AAAAAAAAAg8/_gng3WiNdcg/s512/DSCN9229.JPG

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_w1w5xExyXnU/SBUvvIc2t2I/AAAAAAAAAg4/4x4dwDgMduY/s512/DSCN9228.JPG

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_w1w5xExyXnU/SBUvw4c2t6I/AAAAAAAAAhI/T7CQw1vXB74/s512/DSCN9232.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_w1w5xExyXnU/SBZj8oc2t7I/AAAAAAAAAhk/Qs3llTrdQZk/s640/DSCN9238.JPG


_____
I collect Hermann Goring Panzerkorp and Luftwaffe Field Division items as well as tropical items from all branches of service.

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#8 18-04-2011 20:17:11

Bond
Veteran DAK Member
Registered: 13-04-2011
Posts: 788

Re: Luftwaffe tropical tunics

Hi,

it looks very similar in cut to my KM coastal art summer/'brown' tunic.


Regards,

Jerry

http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/10_kustenarttunic0001_-_copy.jpg

http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/10_kustenarttunic0029.jpg

http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/10_kustenarttunic0016.jpg


Regards,

Jerry B.

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#9 18-04-2011 23:43:25

Unfront
Confirmed DAK Member
From: West Coast of the US
Registered: 13-04-2011
Posts: 127
Website

Re: Luftwaffe tropical tunics

Hello Jerry,

Indeed they are very close. The scallops on the pockets of my tunic are a bit more pronounced. Does yours have any issue markings? Mine does not have them anywhere. I ask because this does not look like a standard issue KM tropical tunic (not that it is not real, just that it does not look like a depot item - either way, very nice). Can you post photos of the underside of the breast eagle?

Thanks
Erik

Last edited by Unfront (19-04-2011 05:52:58)


_____
I collect Hermann Goring Panzerkorp and Luftwaffe Field Division items as well as tropical items from all branches of service.

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#10 19-04-2011 00:14:47

Sebastian.V
Administrator
From: Paris
Registered: 06-04-2011
Posts: 1932

Re: Luftwaffe tropical tunics

Jerry and Erik, your tunics are superb...I am jealous....roll

many thanks for your posts, the sand forum need your help to stay alive... wink

best
Sebastien

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#11 20-04-2011 19:24:11

-Ray-
DAK Member
From: FT. Bragg, N.C.
Registered: 20-04-2011
Posts: 32

Re: Luftwaffe tropical tunics

Quote: "Upfront"

Hi. Nice tunic regardless. I would also lean my weight to a KM tunic. I have/had a few KM and LW tropical tunics and see the resigning properties more related to the KM branch.

Even tough claimed as a private purchase I would go as far as suggesting a KM work/utility uniform. In conflict with the continental LW tunics, the tropical tunics had the 6 button front.

Does your example have a button for the top button eyelet? Some KM tunics lack this  button for some reason eventhough the eyelet is present as on an example in my possesion at this time. Also note the distinc spacing between the 4 and 5th eyelet thats is unique to KM utility anf tropical uniforms.
These were produced in variation of shades from green, brown, and tan.

Also any corded ventilation grommets in the underarm area? This could even be a KM general purpose utility uniform for that matter as earlier mentioned?

This could have just been commonly adopted for use by the wearer. Above all, any combination could be possible and defy the rule of thumb?

-Ray-

Last edited by -Ray- (21-04-2011 20:27:11)

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#12 20-04-2011 21:06:25

Bond
Veteran DAK Member
Registered: 13-04-2011
Posts: 788

Re: Luftwaffe tropical tunics

Agree Ray, mine is a KM/coastal artillery utility/summer work tunic, often called a 'Brown' tunic (which is what I said when I posted it) and not a TROPICAL tunic.  No depot or issue or makers stamp, just size markings, in two places.  No problem with mine, 100% original.

I can post the reverse of the eagle at some time, no problem.

Regards,

Jerry


Regards,

Jerry B.

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#13 21-04-2011 18:50:00

Unfront
Confirmed DAK Member
From: West Coast of the US
Registered: 13-04-2011
Posts: 127
Website

Re: Luftwaffe tropical tunics

Hello Ray,
Welcome to the forum.

Indeed the tunic I posted does weigh more in its appearance to a KM tunic - but the differences between a depot issue KM tunic and these tunics posted here are numerous.

To answer your questions - there is no corresponding button to the top eyelet. Yes there is a break between the 4th and 5th eyelets. There are no ventilation holes under the arm pits. (unlike a depot KM Tropical tunic which would have the vent holes).  I would bet that Jerry's tunic does not have the vent holes either. (Jerry can you let us know?) In addition, there is no evedidence that there ever was a breast eagle that was sewn to the uniform. There was a cuff title applied to the left sleeve that was removed - for whatever that is worth...

I have a depot issue KM tropical tunic on the way and there are many differences between it and both of the tunics posted above. No doubt the KM used this type of tunic (as evidenced by Jerry's tunic) but there is also a period photo in the Dal McGuirk book showing this exact same tunic model with Heer insignia on it. That is what makes me believe that these tunics were privately purchased (I could be wrong on that - see below*) and used by all branches of the Wehrmacht (Heer, Luft and KM).

*If these are not a private purchase tunic and are a common KM issue item, then it is possible that individuals from other branches would acquire them and convert them to their own use as these tunics have a much "smarter" appearance than the standard issue tunics of the other branches. (As an aside, I have seen a depot issue continental wool KM Coast Artillery model tunic that was wartime converted into a Heer tunic. I believe this was done because out of the factory, mid war KM tunics looked more like army M36 tunics with the dark gray collar. It was not unheard of for individual soldiers to convert/modify tunics in such a manner as to represent a "veteran" look.)

Lastly, Jerry, you have a very nice tunic! I like Coast Arty stuff. Just have not gotten around to adding anything to my colletion for it.

Last edited by Unfront (21-04-2011 19:10:18)


_____
I collect Hermann Goring Panzerkorp and Luftwaffe Field Division items as well as tropical items from all branches of service.

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#14 21-04-2011 19:23:21

Bond
Veteran DAK Member
Registered: 13-04-2011
Posts: 788

Re: Luftwaffe tropical tunics

Hi all,

Mine has no button to match the phantom button hole in the lapel and it has no armpit vent holes.

I have seen white versions of this type of tunic for the km, identical except in colour/fabric used, and having a pin backed breast eagle, usually with T ended removable boards.

There are some pics of this type of tunic in Kurtz's Afrikakorps book.


Jerry

Last edited by VonBond (21-04-2011 19:24:38)


Regards,

Jerry B.

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#15 21-04-2011 20:00:56

-Ray-
DAK Member
From: FT. Bragg, N.C.
Registered: 20-04-2011
Posts: 32

Re: Luftwaffe tropical tunics

Here are 2 tunics for example.

Left

KM Tropical Tunic. This has the ventilation eyelets, interior breast pockets, partial rayon liner. Notice the pronounced collar, and button front (there is a button for the top eyelet). No manufacture's logo or markings present but I'm convinced a private manufacture. I had sold this one just last year.

Right

KM Reed Green Utility/work Tunic. Displays all the indentical traits of the previous KM Tunics posted on this thread. Produced by "Steuermann Gmbh, Worms." T-board set up. This is currently in my collection.

Please pardon me for altering the course of this subject, but does anyone have a clue to the 5th absent button enigma?
Additional pictures available.

-Ray-



http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/23_dsc06066.jpg  http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/23_dsc06538.jpg

Last edited by -Ray- (21-04-2011 20:28:56)

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#16 21-04-2011 21:11:48

Unfront
Confirmed DAK Member
From: West Coast of the US
Registered: 13-04-2011
Posts: 127
Website

Re: Luftwaffe tropical tunics

I'd be willing to bet that the 5th button hole ( w/ absent button) was for asthetics only.


_____
I collect Hermann Goring Panzerkorp and Luftwaffe Field Division items as well as tropical items from all branches of service.

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#17 21-04-2011 21:19:19

Bond
Veteran DAK Member
Registered: 13-04-2011
Posts: 788

Re: Luftwaffe tropical tunics

Good looking tunics Ray.

Maybe purely for asthetics, or perhaps echoing a tradition from an earlier time, though it is a bit odd and I have never heard a reason given for this.



Jerry


Regards,

Jerry B.

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#18 21-04-2011 21:25:44

Bond
Veteran DAK Member
Registered: 13-04-2011
Posts: 788

Re: Luftwaffe tropical tunics

Erik,

Does your Luft/KM tunic show signs that it was set up for removal T boards.  If it was modified by sewing in Luft boards and adding a removable Luft summer eagle in place of KM T boards and a Removable KM summer eagle, that would be easy to do.  Off course, it could be period done, but I think it most likely that it was originally intended for use by the KM, though this is only my opinion.

Regards,

Jerry


Regards,

Jerry B.

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#19 21-04-2011 23:00:06

Unfront
Confirmed DAK Member
From: West Coast of the US
Registered: 13-04-2011
Posts: 127
Website

Re: Luftwaffe tropical tunics

Jerry,

The boards are sewn in. However, when...? That and the removed cuff title on the left sleeve.... just opens up some questions.
Can you post photos of the shoulder baord provisions for your tunic (w/out shoulder boards in place)?

Either way, this is a perfect example for the existence of forums such as this... to share knowledge and to learn.

I have learned that this tunic was most likely intended for use by KM. Now the fact that this tunic currently has Luftwaffe insignia leaves much to ponder.  Again, I point out to the period photo in the Dal McGuirk book of this exact model of tunic being used "by an italian serving as a translator in the Deutsche Wehrmacht" (complete with Heer insignia) leaves me with the understanding that these tunics did see use by the other branches.  - I wish I had a copy of the photo to scan.

Here is a question (with some precursur facts):
1. There are absolutely no factory markings on this tunic.
2. It is a fact that this is a known cut for a KM model tunic.
3. This tunic; however, has Luftwaffe insignia that is sewn to it.
4. There was a cuff title sewn to the left sleeve at one time (which has been removed).
5. There is a period photo in Dal McGuirk's Rommels Army in Africa of this model tunic in use by the Heer (with Heer Breast Eagle and Litzen) - If I can track down the photo I will scan it and post it.

The question - would you:
A. Cut the boards of and obtain KM boards and a KM eagle (i.e. change it back to a KM tunic)? or
B. Leave the tunic alone as is?

Last edited by Unfront (21-04-2011 23:07:36)


_____
I collect Hermann Goring Panzerkorp and Luftwaffe Field Division items as well as tropical items from all branches of service.

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#20 21-04-2011 23:37:08

-Ray-
DAK Member
From: FT. Bragg, N.C.
Registered: 20-04-2011
Posts: 32

Re: Luftwaffe tropical tunics

Upfront:

Another interesting indicator we may have overlooked; is there a third horizontal schlaufen (loop) to secure the brest eagle, or traces of one previously removed? That would also be a KM trait.

Under the base of the schulterklappe (on the tunic itself) look for a semi orb pattern of reinforcing stitching paralelling the radial arm/shoulder seam contact areas, indicative to a T-board application. I can post pictures as well.

I fully concure as a widely known fact that uniforms are known to have been cross employed by all branches and would not hint at altering the tunic. It comes down to a matter of what is acceptable. Something like this unorthodox configuration would be unconvincing to a hardened collector perhaps.

I'm looking for the Uebersetzer (translator) photo you are refering to, and will update this post if it helps.
As you insinuated, this is the essence of the forum. I will have some items to post also that we all can consructively pick apart.

-Ray-

This must be the image you speak of? Ref: "Rommel's Army In Africa" 1987, By Dal McGuirk.

http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/23_scan0001.jpg

Last edited by -Ray- (22-04-2011 00:11:28)

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#21 22-04-2011 00:11:33

Unfront
Confirmed DAK Member
From: West Coast of the US
Registered: 13-04-2011
Posts: 127
Website

Re: Luftwaffe tropical tunics

Ray,  That is the one!  Indeed, there are only two loops for the eagle with no hint of a third.

If you can, could you please post a photo of the orb pattern for re-enforcing the base of the shoulderboard that you speak of?

Thank you.


_____
I collect Hermann Goring Panzerkorp and Luftwaffe Field Division items as well as tropical items from all branches of service.

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#22 22-04-2011 00:27:58

-Ray-
DAK Member
From: FT. Bragg, N.C.
Registered: 20-04-2011
Posts: 32

Re: Luftwaffe tropical tunics

Unfront wrote:

Ray,  That is the one!  Indeed, there are only two loops for the eagle with no hint of a third.

If you can, could you please post a photo of the orb pattern for re-enforcing the base of the shoulderboard that you speak of?

Thank you.

This KM reinforced stitching is not present on my LW tropical tunic. Your tunic may have these present as testimony, and may have been sewn shut perhaps by some member such as the translator photo since his boards were not T-Forms. Loops could have been fabricated to accomadate modifications.

-Ray-
http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/23_dsc07013.jpg   http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/23_dsc07014.jpg

Last edited by -Ray- (22-04-2011 00:32:50)

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#23 22-04-2011 07:47:53

Bond
Veteran DAK Member
Registered: 13-04-2011
Posts: 788

Re: Luftwaffe tropical tunics

I'll post some detail shots of where my boards attach late, just going to work soon.  They have been modified with the addition of a small dished metal button underneath/inside to allow the use of slip on boards, maybe because he could not get T boards for his rank.

I have no problem with this type of tunic being 'adopted' by a non KM person, I have seen that picture you mention and have seen some others, I'll try and find some pics later.

Good to see the debate on this, thats what forums should be about.

Regards,

Jerry


Regards,

Jerry B.

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#24 22-04-2011 18:49:34

bicho31
New Member
Registered: 20-04-2011
Posts: 2

Re: Luftwaffe tropical tunics

Hello,
I like the forum.
I like Afrika's topic.
Please,
Since they put on photos? Not since it is done.
Since photos put?
Since new topics put?

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#25 22-04-2011 20:24:33

Bond
Veteran DAK Member
Registered: 13-04-2011
Posts: 788

Re: Luftwaffe tropical tunics

Some detail pics of the shoulder board area of my KM coastal art tunic.

Regards,

Jerry

http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/10_shoulder_board_detail_1.jpg

http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/10_shoulder_board_detail_2.jpg

AND THE INSIDE BUTTON, TO ALLOW USE OF SLIPON BAORDS, INSTEAD OF T BOARDS

http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/10_shoulder_board_detail_3.jpg

Last edited by VonBond (22-04-2011 20:27:10)


Regards,

Jerry B.

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