AFRIKA KORPS FORUM

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

You are not logged in.

Announcement

New Forum about the DAK and Tropical German army, and Allied army in WW2 only

#1 17-05-2015 21:56:34

seagerthomas
DAK Member
Registered: 03-05-2015
Posts: 54

The Afrika Cuff Title and it's Variations

I just picked this ‘Afrika’ cuff title up off ebay (top in the first picture and bottom in the second). I believe it to be a fake. But it has a lot in common with cuff titles believed to be authentic, such as that posted by me here, and as with the Afrikakorps titles in the Magpie’s thread, I think it worth comparing and contrasting it to and with them. Please bare in mind, however, that not all ‘Afrika’ titles considered to be authentic are identical, the embroidered lettering and the palms in particular varying from cuff title to cuff title. (The central frond of the palms are close to upright trees on some — see my final picture, from the Imperial War Museum's on line collection — and bent on others — mine and Bender & Law's (1973, p. 198).
As with my other posts, the pictures say almost everything that needs to be said, but it is worth emphasizing one or two points of similarity, and rather more of difference.
Superficially the two are similar. The fabric of the ‘fake’ is a camelhair, its colour very close to mine, and its ‘feel’, though perhaps a little lighter, similar. It is not polyester (it does not melt). When I got it through the post, I thought ‘Hey, it’s a real one.’ But no: when you put the two side by side, the difference is inescapable.
First of all, the orientation of the fabric is a different way round. Look at the way it frays. The title is wider than mine and has a wide margin between the borders and its edge. The colour of the borders and the embroidered letters differ and the embroidery itself is shaky. Look at the “R” and at the feet of all the letters, which lack the pronounced splay of the authentic title, and look at their nasty knotted rears.
Comments please. And does anyone have or know of a photo detailed enough to distinguish the form of the palms on these things; and/or does anyone know of a title like mine (the 'real' one, not the 'fake' one) with a secure veteran provenance?
Cheers
Mike

http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2748_afrika-reverse.gif
http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2748_afrika-obverse.gif
http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2748_large.jpg

Last edited by seagerthomas (17-05-2015 22:18:48)


‘Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.’ Charles Darwin in The Descent of Man (1871), p. 3.

Offline

 

#2 18-05-2015 00:51:33

seagerthomas
DAK Member
Registered: 03-05-2015
Posts: 54

Re: The Afrika Cuff Title and it's Variations

What about the IWM's upright palm? (There is an identical but more bruised one on the WarRelics forum). Do these also have a sound provenance?

Last edited by seagerthomas (22-06-2015 01:18:55)


‘Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.’ Charles Darwin in The Descent of Man (1871), p. 3.

Offline

 

#3 18-05-2015 13:44:53

seagerthomas
DAK Member
Registered: 03-05-2015
Posts: 54

Re: The Afrika Cuff Title and it's Variations

1 is the ebay seller's photo of what I was suggesting is a fake. 2–4 are details of it. 5 & 6 show it side with my original post, which we all agree is authentic (the authentic one at top of photo 5 and to the right of photo 6). 7) is the cuff title with an upright palm off the War Relics Forum.

1)http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2748_afrika-fake-whole.gif
2)http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2748_afrika-obverse-detail-1.gif 3)http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2748_afrika-obverse-detail-2.gif4)http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2748_afrika-reverse-detail-1.gif
5)http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2748_afrika-obverse-detail-4.gif6)http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2748_afrika-obverse-detail-3.gif
7)http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2748_trmedals01.jpg

Last edited by seagerthomas (22-06-2015 02:05:03)


‘Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.’ Charles Darwin in The Descent of Man (1871), p. 3.

Offline

 

#4 18-05-2015 14:43:17

don_kihotis7
Moderator
From: Cyprus
Registered: 05-09-2013
Posts: 2477

Re: The Afrika Cuff Title and it's Variations

Nice thread guys.

The first give away for me of the fake CT was the filled palm leaves. Compare it with your original example and note the difference.


_____________________
Back up forum in case of emergency: http://afrikakorpsforum.xooit.fr/index.php
German Helmet Walhalla: http://www.ghw2.com
http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2378_signature_photo.jpg

Offline

 

#5 19-05-2015 14:22:27

don_kihotis7
Moderator
From: Cyprus
Registered: 05-09-2013
Posts: 2477

Re: The Afrika Cuff Title and it's Variations

The Magpie wrote:

Thanks for the added photos, Both Afrika ct's are original imo.The ebay version is a rare varient but original.

Tim you mean both the CTs in post #1 are originals?


_____________________
Back up forum in case of emergency: http://afrikakorpsforum.xooit.fr/index.php
German Helmet Walhalla: http://www.ghw2.com
http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2378_signature_photo.jpg

Offline

 

#6 19-05-2015 14:23:52

don_kihotis7
Moderator
From: Cyprus
Registered: 05-09-2013
Posts: 2477

Re: The Afrika Cuff Title and it's Variations

DAK D wrote:

Hi Mike,

I am looking at my own one right now and it belonged to an NCO in Panzer Regiment 5 and I have his wherpass and two photo albums that belonged to him. I even have a photo of him wearing it. The title is almost identical to the original in your photos.

D

DAK D i would love to see the aforementioned grouping http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2378_love.gif


_____________________
Back up forum in case of emergency: http://afrikakorpsforum.xooit.fr/index.php
German Helmet Walhalla: http://www.ghw2.com
http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2378_signature_photo.jpg

Offline

 

#7 19-05-2015 21:36:37

don_kihotis7
Moderator
From: Cyprus
Registered: 05-09-2013
Posts: 2477

Re: The Afrika Cuff Title and it's Variations

The Magpie wrote:

don_kihotis7 wrote:

The Magpie wrote:

Thanks for the added photos, Both Afrika ct's are original imo.The ebay version is a rare varient but original.

Tim you mean both the CTs in post #1 are originals?

Yes sorry Chris, need to be more clear in my posts. Both or even every CT shown so far in this thread is an original. Mike's is a rare variation but here is another just like it from another collector Antonio.

cheers
Tim

Interesting Tim. Thanks for the clarification and the new photo.
Cheers


_____________________
Back up forum in case of emergency: http://afrikakorpsforum.xooit.fr/index.php
German Helmet Walhalla: http://www.ghw2.com
http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2378_signature_photo.jpg

Offline

 

#8 20-05-2015 15:28:21

seagerthomas
DAK Member
Registered: 03-05-2015
Posts: 54

Re: The Afrika Cuff Title and it's Variations

Yes sorry Chris, need to be more clear in my posts. Both or even every CT shown so far in this thread is an original. Mike's ebay version is a rare variation but here is another just like it from another collector Antonio.

My 'fake' is very like The Magpie's last post — definitely the same type. Note the difference in colour between the margin and the embroidery, the 'R' and the non-expanded feet on the letters. Mine also has the selvage you can see on the right hand end of the cuff.

Last edited by seagerthomas (22-06-2015 01:20:23)


‘Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.’ Charles Darwin in The Descent of Man (1871), p. 3.

Offline

 

#9 21-05-2015 10:12:56

don_kihotis7
Moderator
From: Cyprus
Registered: 05-09-2013
Posts: 2477

Re: The Afrika Cuff Title and it's Variations

Just adding mine to this thread. Interestingly i have noticed that it's also the type with the filled leaves. I had read somewhere that this is a red flag. Apparently this theory is not valid anymore.

It came with this photo of Rommel but i was told it's a period photo of a photo. Who knows? roll

http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2378_img_1839.jpg


_____________________
Back up forum in case of emergency: http://afrikakorpsforum.xooit.fr/index.php
German Helmet Walhalla: http://www.ghw2.com
http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2378_signature_photo.jpg

Offline

 

#10 21-05-2015 11:03:50

seagerthomas
DAK Member
Registered: 03-05-2015
Posts: 54

Re: The Afrika Cuff Title and it's Variations

Was it offered as an original on ebay ?

It was described as follows: 'German Afrika Korps Cuff Title - I'm not 100% sure that the item is original - Starting price symbolic, you set its value'. There were only 6 bids and I got it for £24.95 plus £5 postage (c. USD47), which seems cheap for an Afrika title, even in its condition, so I assume most potential buyers thought it dodgy. From the pictures posted I was not a hundred percent sure, but thought it probably authentic. It was only when it arrived and I compared it directly to the cuff title I already had that I began to wonder.

As an aside, the text, the backing fabric and the edging of the title in my original post are almost identical to those of don-kihotis's, above. My palms, however, are not filled.

Finally, does anyone have any view on the Afrika titles in other fabrics? — I've automatically been turning my nose up at these but I spotted one on the War Relics forum with an apparently sound Kriegsmarine provenance (sorry, I can't find the post anymore). Do you think any are real?

Last edited by seagerthomas (22-06-2015 01:21:43)


‘Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.’ Charles Darwin in The Descent of Man (1871), p. 3.

Offline

 

#11 23-05-2015 06:40:01

don_kihotis7
Moderator
From: Cyprus
Registered: 05-09-2013
Posts: 2477

Re: The Afrika Cuff Title and it's Variations

Indeed. Tim is right in every point mentioned in the above post.


_____________________
Back up forum in case of emergency: http://afrikakorpsforum.xooit.fr/index.php
German Helmet Walhalla: http://www.ghw2.com
http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2378_signature_photo.jpg

Offline

 

#12 24-05-2015 21:50:17

seagerthomas
DAK Member
Registered: 03-05-2015
Posts: 54

Re: The Afrika Cuff Title and it's Variations

The Kriegsmarine title sounds like your reunion one.

Last edited by seagerthomas (22-06-2015 02:06:47)


‘Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.’ Charles Darwin in The Descent of Man (1871), p. 3.

Offline

 

#13 25-05-2015 10:05:59

don_kihotis7
Moderator
From: Cyprus
Registered: 05-09-2013
Posts: 2477

Re: The Afrika Cuff Title and it's Variations

Hi guys, i don't like the thread starter either.

I will send to Tim, both emails of Mike and D so that you can have a private discussion.

Cheers


_____________________
Back up forum in case of emergency: http://afrikakorpsforum.xooit.fr/index.php
German Helmet Walhalla: http://www.ghw2.com
http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2378_signature_photo.jpg

Offline

 

#14 26-05-2015 10:44:10

don_kihotis7
Moderator
From: Cyprus
Registered: 05-09-2013
Posts: 2477

Re: The Afrika Cuff Title and it's Variations

Hi Tim, sorry for the confusion. I Was referring to Dermot's post #26 above. I didn't notice that the thread turned page roll


_____________________
Back up forum in case of emergency: http://afrikakorpsforum.xooit.fr/index.php
German Helmet Walhalla: http://www.ghw2.com
http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2378_signature_photo.jpg

Offline

 

#15 26-05-2015 15:24:14

don_kihotis7
Moderator
From: Cyprus
Registered: 05-09-2013
Posts: 2477

Re: The Afrika Cuff Title and it's Variations

Tim thanks for your effort mate.

I like the green one too. The others are new for me.

When it comes to CTs i stick with the known textbook examples. I am afraid to touch the rest such as the black Afrikakorps or blue Afrika etc


_____________________
Back up forum in case of emergency: http://afrikakorpsforum.xooit.fr/index.php
German Helmet Walhalla: http://www.ghw2.com
http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2378_signature_photo.jpg

Offline

 

#16 27-05-2015 11:13:29

don_kihotis7
Moderator
From: Cyprus
Registered: 05-09-2013
Posts: 2477

Re: The Afrika Cuff Title and it's Variations

Any suggestions for the title of the thread?

"Post your Afrika cufftitles" or "Afrika Cufftitles" or something else?


_____________________
Back up forum in case of emergency: http://afrikakorpsforum.xooit.fr/index.php
German Helmet Walhalla: http://www.ghw2.com
http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2378_signature_photo.jpg

Offline

 

#17 28-05-2015 11:31:25

don_kihotis7
Moderator
From: Cyprus
Registered: 05-09-2013
Posts: 2477

Re: The Afrika Cuff Title and it's Variations

Hi guys, the thread it's now pinned.

I asked Seba to rename it to: "The Afrika Cuff Title and it's Variations"


_____________________
Back up forum in case of emergency: http://afrikakorpsforum.xooit.fr/index.php
German Helmet Walhalla: http://www.ghw2.com
http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2378_signature_photo.jpg

Offline

 

#18 30-05-2015 10:39:43

Sebastian.V
Administrator
From: Paris
Registered: 06-04-2011
Posts: 1932

Re: The Afrika Cuff Title and it's Variations

you are welcome my friend ! smile Dak Forum is our family !

Offline

 

#19 31-05-2015 10:47:22

seagerthomas
DAK Member
Registered: 03-05-2015
Posts: 54

Re: The Afrika Cuff Title and it's Variations

How about this one? (from 'Through their Eyes')

http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2748_odd-afrika-title-1-small.gif http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2748_odd-afrika-title-detail.gif http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2748_odd_afrika_title_2_copy.jpg
http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2748_recipient.gif

Last edited by seagerthomas (22-06-2015 01:24:40)


‘Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.’ Charles Darwin in The Descent of Man (1871), p. 3.

Offline

 

#20 10-06-2015 09:22:10

don_kihotis7
Moderator
From: Cyprus
Registered: 05-09-2013
Posts: 2477

Re: The Afrika Cuff Title and it's Variations

Nice addition Tim. Well done smile


_____________________
Back up forum in case of emergency: http://afrikakorpsforum.xooit.fr/index.php
German Helmet Walhalla: http://www.ghw2.com
http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/2378_signature_photo.jpg

Offline

 

#21 14-06-2015 09:55:25

seagerthomas
DAK Member
Registered: 03-05-2015
Posts: 54

Re: The Afrika Cuff Title and it's Variations

I have found the brown KM title to which I referred above. Looks a lot like the Magpie's common fake and his KM reunion title. Look at the 'A's.
http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/viewto … d=228#p228

Last edited by seagerthomas (22-06-2015 02:03:28)


‘Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.’ Charles Darwin in The Descent of Man (1871), p. 3.

Offline

 

Board footer

Créez Votre Propre Forum
Insérer vos Graphiques
Dictionnaires de Traduction
Hébergé par ForumCrea.com