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#1 05-09-2011 09:39:13

Bond
Veteran DAK Member
Registered: 13-04-2011
Posts: 788

Tunic eagle application chronolgy

Images provided by the Magpie, showing Tunic eagle application, 1940, 1941, 1942 & 1944.

Regards,

Jerry

1940
http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/10_dsc08489md40.jpg

1941
http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/10_dsc08493md41.jpg

1942
http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/10_dsc08492md42.jpg

1944
http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/10_dsc06483md44.jpg


Regards,

Jerry B.

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#2 05-09-2011 10:33:39

The Magpie
Veteran DAK Member
Registered: 29-06-2011
Posts: 650

Re: Tunic eagle application chronolgy

Thanks Jerry for posting these up for me. These photos are each of original eagles applied to dated tunics. The one missing is the 1943 zigzag stitch application. The evolution can be seen from year to year. From 1940 all hand stitched, 1941 hand stitched/flipped hand finished, 1942 machine/flipped hand finished, to the later '44 machine/flipped/machine hand stitched style. Also would like to thank Mike Davis for the some of the photos, with great appreciation.

Last edited by The Magpie (24-01-2012 06:54:23)

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#3 05-09-2011 11:38:22

Blaise
DAK Member
Registered: 22-08-2011
Posts: 53

Re: Tunic eagle application chronolgy

Nice thread !

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#4 05-09-2011 11:44:41

Sebastian.V
Administrator
From: Paris
Registered: 06-04-2011
Posts: 1953

Re: Tunic eagle application chronolgy

Great work...

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#5 11-09-2011 03:19:05

Wessels
Confirmed DAK Member
From: Nordwest der USA
Registered: 17-04-2011
Posts: 185

Re: Tunic eagle application chronolgy

I am quite certain that the Zig Zag stitch application type appeared on Heer breast eagles prior to 1943. My standard wool M40 tunic has an original applied dark green Bevo eagle all Zig Zagged. The bottom edge of the wreath is just barely under the breast pocket and does not go through the lining material...no way a post application.

Also...my Second pattern topical Heer tunic has a Zig Zagged eagle as does my brothers. Both eagles are the early cotton type.

I truly believe that it was a decision of the firm that made the tunic or quite possibly the individual them self who was running the machine as to how the eagles were applied...as long as it followed a set standard of authorized application techniques. I do believe though that the Zig Zag became far more prevalent as the war progressed thus creating a myth that the Zig Zag first appeared in 1943...when in reality, it appeared earlier.

Great thread and I hope this helps!


I study and collect uniforms, equipment, decorations, personal effects, photos, weapons and vehicles of the ground forces of the Heer, Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine and Waffen SS.

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#6 11-09-2011 09:02:45

NZMark
Moderator
From: New Zealand
Registered: 08-04-2011
Posts: 1096

Re: Tunic eagle application chronolgy

Here's what I believe (at this time) from what I've seen...
1940 - Both hand sewn and machine sewn across the top/flipped/hand-sewn
1941 - As above
1942 - As above but far less likely all hand sewn to be found
1943 - Machine sewn accross the top/flipped and machine sewn as well as the more commonly hand finished example. Zig-zag sewn examples seen. Straight machine sewn all around also seen
1944 - Carry over of previous examples.
Nothing's set in stone...
Mark


Student & Collector of WWII German Tropical Militaria

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#7 11-09-2011 13:56:18

RRA227
Supreme DAK Member
From: Hokendauqua.Pa. U.S.A.
Registered: 23-06-2011
Posts: 1513

Re: Tunic eagle application chronolgy

Thanks for posting this! Rich A. in Pa.


1969 Shelby GT-500 King of the Road
Knowledge is power, guard it well.

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#8 11-09-2011 19:01:43

Unfront
Confirmed DAK Member
From: West Coast of the US
Registered: 13-04-2011
Posts: 128
Website

Re: Tunic eagle application chronolgy

The manchine ZigZag stitch pattern was introduced far earlier than 1943. You will see it on 1st, 2nd and 3rd pattern tunics alike, along with other methods of application (i.e. zip and flip where the top of the eagle is zipped with a machine, then hand sewn around the rest. Most tunics with 100% hand applied eagles are post war re-applied. Originally applied eagles with hand sewn application are very very very few and far between.

Last edited by Unfront (11-09-2011 19:13:50)


_____
I collect Hermann Goring Panzerkorp and Luftwaffe Field Division items as well as tropical items from all branches of service.

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#9 11-09-2011 19:17:12

Bond
Veteran DAK Member
Registered: 13-04-2011
Posts: 788

Re: Tunic eagle application chronolgy

Adding the zig zag stitched example from Unfront's Rbnr (late 42 onwards?) stamped 2nd pattern.  Again, I assume he won't mind.

Regards,

Jerry

http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/10_ziz_zag_trop_eagle_from_unfronts_tunic.jpg


Regards,

Jerry B.

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#10 11-09-2011 23:08:16

The Magpie
Veteran DAK Member
Registered: 29-06-2011
Posts: 650

Re: Tunic eagle application chronolgy

Thanks Jerry i was hoping a zigzig version would be posted up here as well and Unfronts is a great example. I did not mean that the zigzag was first/only used in '43. As NZMark has stated there was an evolution of eagle application on tropical tunics. These photos only demonstrate the various methods of original eagle application on original untouched dated tunics. Thanks for everyones input.

Last edited by The Magpie (25-09-2012 09:49:23)

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#11 11-09-2011 23:30:49

NZMark
Moderator
From: New Zealand
Registered: 08-04-2011
Posts: 1096

Re: Tunic eagle application chronolgy

Thanks Magpie,
I agree, it's just a general time-line of sewing methods. There are bound to be exceptions and although I also agree that zig-zag sewing was introduced earlier than 1943 it is way more routinely seen 1943 onwards.
As for all hand sewn eagles, I own one and have access to another locally - both examples dated 1941 - and both 100% period sewn.
Mark
http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/3_43.jpg
http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/3_41.jpg


Student & Collector of WWII German Tropical Militaria

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#12 11-09-2011 23:53:15

The Magpie
Veteran DAK Member
Registered: 29-06-2011
Posts: 650

Re: Tunic eagle application chronolgy

Hi Mark

Outstanding ! Anyone else have more examples, photos ? Also the eagle location is important to note.

The 10th Pz Div (not DAK) arrived in Tunisia in late Nov '42 wearing 1st pattern tunics and M40 caps with soutache intact. (As opposed to the replacements often wearin 2nd pattern tunics and M40's w/o soutache per regulations.)  So the timeline on tunics. caps, and eagle application evolution overlaps quite abit.

Last edited by The Magpie (11-09-2011 23:54:37)

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#13 12-09-2011 00:23:33

NZMark
Moderator
From: New Zealand
Registered: 08-04-2011
Posts: 1096

Re: Tunic eagle application chronolgy

True! And it's important to note just how many tunics were manufactured in 1941 - many tens of thousands - so much so that these were still being issued fresh from stores in 1943...and I'm just talking about 1st pattern tunics, not 2nd's which actually saw their first year of production in (late) 1941.
Mark


Student & Collector of WWII German Tropical Militaria

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#14 12-09-2011 01:37:20

The Magpie
Veteran DAK Member
Registered: 29-06-2011
Posts: 650

Re: Tunic eagle application chronolgy

Lets take this discussion a bit further. The first pattern tunics were issued from 1940 to at least '43, and seen in Afrika all three years '41 - '43. 2nd pattern tunics issued & dated late 41 & first seen in Afrika at Alamein ? 3rd patterns issued & dated '42 and first seen in Afrika during the retreat from Alamein ? and/or in Tunisia or not at all?

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#15 13-09-2011 06:13:38

NZMark
Moderator
From: New Zealand
Registered: 08-04-2011
Posts: 1096

Re: Tunic eagle application chronolgy

Magpie,
1st patterns - Certainly field issued and tested 1940.
2nd patterns - Manufactured in late 1941 but first field issued 1942 - when is the question. Finding dated period images is the key to this question...
3rd patterns - Definitely issued last third of 1942 and introduced into Africa late that year - certainly with the 10thPzDiv...
Some may stick their heads in the sand (no pun intended!) about these facts and say that only 1st patterns represent the image of the Veteran German soldier in Africa, but this simply was not the reality.
Mark
http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/3_3rd.jpg


Student & Collector of WWII German Tropical Militaria

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#16 13-09-2011 09:19:22

NZMark
Moderator
From: New Zealand
Registered: 08-04-2011
Posts: 1096

Re: Tunic eagle application chronolgy

And we musn't forget this gem...
This photo was taken 20th November 1942 (a whole month earlier than the above image) in Reggio di Calabria, of a member of 1/schwer Pz Abt 501 en route to Tunis by a member of the same unit.
The photo clearly shows the central figure (identified as T/O Roth) wearing a 3rd pattern tropical tunic, with up-graded insignia...
Regards,
Mark
http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/3_3rdpattern20002.jpg
http://afrikakorps.forumcrea.com/img/avatars/afrikakorps/big/3_3rdpattern20003.jpg


Student & Collector of WWII German Tropical Militaria

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#17 13-09-2011 13:12:56

Wessels
Confirmed DAK Member
From: Nordwest der USA
Registered: 17-04-2011
Posts: 185

Re: Tunic eagle application chronolgy

Absolutely fantastic thread, info, and pics! Love what is being shared!!! And...well said Mark..."Some will stick their head in the sand!" So true! Pictures simply so not lie!!!


I study and collect uniforms, equipment, decorations, personal effects, photos, weapons and vehicles of the ground forces of the Heer, Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine and Waffen SS.

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#18 13-09-2011 22:27:00

The Magpie
Veteran DAK Member
Registered: 29-06-2011
Posts: 650

Re: Tunic eagle application chronolgy

Great photos Mark ! Remembered the photo of the 501st officers and that some thought the Officer was wearing a custom tunic, but agree sure looks like a standard third pattern upgraded to Officer status. While at least one other officer is wearing a 1st pattern tunic, all with M40's with soutache:)

So the 2nd &  third patterns were in Tunisia at the at end of '42, which could imply they were in Afrika even earlier ? perhaps during the retreat from Alamein. I thought i had seen i photo of a 2nd pattern at Alamein but can not locate it presently....?

Last edited by The Magpie (13-09-2011 22:27:30)

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#19 13-09-2011 23:22:07

NZMark
Moderator
From: New Zealand
Registered: 08-04-2011
Posts: 1096

Re: Tunic eagle application chronolgy

I'd love to see that one if you can find it - I haven't seen any earlier images of the 2nd (or 3rd) in wear yet, but this is the thing with what we know - it needs to be constantly upgraded as more evidence becomes available.
Mark


Student & Collector of WWII German Tropical Militaria

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#20 14-09-2011 01:51:35

NZMark
Moderator
From: New Zealand
Registered: 08-04-2011
Posts: 1096

Re: Tunic eagle application chronolgy

Just an additional response in relation to Magpie's comment that (on another forum) some thought the 3rd pattern tunic seen above to be 'custom-made'. This, to me, beggars belief. Why would an officer have a tailor made tunic manufactured in a style that had a) yet to see issue (according to many) b) Was seen at the time as highly unfashionable due to the lack of scalloped pocket flaps and non-bloused pockets. If tailor made then surely he would have ordered it to be made with such desirable features...
Just my thoughts.
Mark


Student & Collector of WWII German Tropical Militaria

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#21 14-09-2011 03:25:49

Wessels
Confirmed DAK Member
From: Nordwest der USA
Registered: 17-04-2011
Posts: 185

Re: Tunic eagle application chronolgy

Well said Mark!!!


I study and collect uniforms, equipment, decorations, personal effects, photos, weapons and vehicles of the ground forces of the Heer, Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine and Waffen SS.

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#22 14-09-2011 08:53:32

Bond
Veteran DAK Member
Registered: 13-04-2011
Posts: 788

Re: Tunic eagle application chronolgy

Just a comment about the lack of scalloped pocket flaps being seen on a tailored tropical tunic, when Rommel's tailored tropical tunic had straight pocket flaps and that might be why people thought it might be a tailored tunic, though it is obviously a standard third pattern with officer insignia added.

Regards,

Jerry


Regards,

Jerry B.

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#23 14-09-2011 19:53:04

Gebirgsjäger
DAK Member
From: Bavaria
Registered: 07-08-2011
Posts: 35

Re: Tunic eagle application chronolgy

Grandpa has a triangle looking one.

http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Gunner33/img003.jpg


Regards

Ulrich

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#24 14-09-2011 19:54:22

Unfront
Confirmed DAK Member
From: West Coast of the US
Registered: 13-04-2011
Posts: 128
Website

Re: Tunic eagle application chronolgy

NZMark wrote:

Just an additional response in relation to Magpie's comment that (on another forum) some thought the 3rd pattern tunic seen above to be 'custom-made'. This, to me, beggars belief. Why would an officer have a tailor made tunic manufactured in a style that had a) yet to see issue (according to many) b) Was seen at the time as highly unfashionable due to the lack of scalloped pocket flaps and non-bloused pockets. If tailor made then surely he would have ordered it to be made with such desirable features...
Just my thoughts.
Mark

I could not agree more! While it is possible that it could be "tailor made"  - that just defies all logic. Every custom made tunic that I have ever seen had attributes of earlier models etc. In addition, the tunic in question (with officers insignia) seems to look in every way, to be a "standard issue" peice.

Last edited by Unfront (14-09-2011 19:55:25)


_____
I collect Hermann Goring Panzerkorp and Luftwaffe Field Division items as well as tropical items from all branches of service.

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#25 14-09-2011 23:23:35

NZMark
Moderator
From: New Zealand
Registered: 08-04-2011
Posts: 1096

Re: Tunic eagle application chronolgy

Gebirgsjäger wrote:

Grandpa has a triangle looking one.

http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx12 … img003.jpg

Typically applied Luftwaffe shirt eagle - not to be confused with Heer insignia. Great photo!
Mark


Student & Collector of WWII German Tropical Militaria

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